Back in July of 2006, one of the moonbats over at Democratic Underground tried to disprove the idea that the World Trade Center was brought down by airplanes and fire by using, I am not kidding, chicken wire, a concrete slab, and a can of kerosene.
Now, they’re out to test a hypothesis about waterboarding:
A DUer and his brother waterboarded each other to prove that it is torture. The first time, he lasted 9 seconds and he said it was terrifying. But then he went back three more times to see if he could last longer and longer. In his fourth final go around he lasted 20 seconds. His brother lasted even longer.
Do we really need to explain to this guy that waterboarding isn’t torture if he kept voluntarily going back for more for the purpose of challenging himself. Lordy, what an idiot.
Somebody must’ve left the liquor next to the keyboard again.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Torture Defined:
# anguish: extreme mental distress
# unbearable physical pain
# agony: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; “an agony of doubt”; “the torments of the damned”
# torment: torment emotionally or mentally
# distortion: the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean
# subject to torture; “The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible”
# the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason; “it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession”
Now these guys did it voluntarily, but a POW or even a suspected terrorist isn’t volunteering but is being forced to endure. It is torture if its mental or physical anguish or abuse. Definition of what is torture is provided, and only the person enduring can tell you how they feel. But we don’t’ care about that these days its all about results. I am not against torture, but at least have the balls to admit it.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I am truly amazed.
To think that we have let the “right wing” start a conversation over what torture is and should we be doing it.
Let me just set you straight ladies and gentlemen of the right wing, You are wrong, torture is wrong and water-boarding is torture.
The only way for you to even try and justify water-boarding is to say that you enjoy the feeling of drowning, because that is what it is, the terrifying feeling of drowning to death. You all might be masochists and enjoy that, but I for one do not enjoy that feeling one bit! In fact, I would probably tell you whatever you wanted to hear just to get that feeling to stop!
I can’t imagine that you really do enjoy that feeling, so maybe your getting your enjoyment out of doing it to other people? What kind of human does that make you? What kind of American are you if that’s the case?
There is probably a group of you right wingers who say that you take no pleasure or enjoyment out of torturing other humans, for you torture is done out of necessity.
I would just like to ask those of you who self delude themselves in this manner, then why torture? If a man will tell you whatever you want to hear under torture how can the information he provides be useful?
You may win this fight and get what you want, you may get your torture, your spying and the destruction of what true Americans hold so close to our hearts.
BUT you wont get away with it!
History has a way of catching up with your kind and in the end your ideology, after being thoroughly discredited and destroyed will be thrown on the scrap heap of failed human follies.
For every two steps humanity takes forward, folks like you “torture supporters” force us back one step, but in the end we’re still going to get there.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
bison,
Pretending to waterboard yourself is not the way to discuss what does and doesn’t constitute torture.
Its a way to act like a spoiled child.
Oh wait, we’re talking about DU here aren’t we ?
October 30th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Mr. Mataconis,
Can you please tell me why we are even having this discussion in 2007?
This is not about a childish stunt pulled by a group of nobody’s, this is about the fact that the torturers are making us have this discussion at all.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
bison,
We are having this discussion because a bunch of idiots at DU pulled another stupid stunt that I found amusing.
Basically, I’m laughing at them, and you’re helping.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
So if I understand you correctly, you hate the Democratic Underground so much that you will defend torture just to spite them?
I assume that you wrote the words :
“Do we really need to explain to this guy that waterboarding isn’t torture if he kept voluntarily going back for more for the purpose of challenging himself. Lordy, what an idiot.”
Aside from the fact that it is a very sophomoric, naive and cavalier statement, it appears also to be a thinly vialed attempt at justifying or at least allowing passive acceptance of this kind of Torture.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
bison,
I’m not talking about torture.
I’m talking about two dumbasses who pretended to waterboard each other.
Probably after sniffing glue.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:25 am
I just don’t understand your fixation with the “two dumbasses who pretended to waterboard each other”.
Your whole argument seems to be that if the people who run a little website act the fool then torture must be ok.
If, as you say, you “are having this discussion because a bunch of idiots at DU pulled another stupid stunt ” then all I can say is I think you should have chosen another way to express yourself or another subject to bash them on because you sound like you are just trying to discredit them in order to support torture.
Just answer one question for me Mr. Mataconis,
Do you believe that we betray any American ideals by torturing other humans, no matter the reason for the torture? and if you do, witch ones?
October 31st, 2007 at 10:36 am
bison,
You’ve obviously missed the point.
Pretending to waterboard yourself is no more relevant to a debate on torture than using chicken wire and kerosene (another legendary DU’er’s experiment) is to debates on terrorism.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:38 am
As a general answer yes.
What constitutes torture is another question entirely, as is the issue of whether its use in specific circumstances is, if not justifiable, at least understandable.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:38 am
Mr. Mataconis,
I belive you also have missed the point.
I’m fairly certain that “Pretending to waterboard yourself” was just a publicity stunt on their part to draw attention to their cause.
As for your response to my question, your answer speaks volumes about you.
I applaud you for your honesty, I myself believe that “As a general answer”, blowing up the earth and everyone on it would be bad for us.
But this part….”What constitutes torture is another question entirely, as is the issue of whether its use in specific circumstances is, if not justifiable, at least understandable.” ……is priceless!
Really Mr. Mataconis? you understand the reasons for torture, really? You believe that forcing people to say and do things against their will, using extreme pain and unbearable duress is understandable and maybe even justifiable??
I have read your bio Mr. Mataconis and all I can say is, I’m getting really tired of you “scared americans” all rushing to give away our freedoms and libertys and tired of your justification’s for torture.
911 may have changed your views on American values but it did not change my views, if anything it strengthened my conviction that our way of life was the right way.
To me torture is never justifiable and I’m not so scared of my own shadow that I can “understand” and except someone else is doing it in my name.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:56 am
Anybody who thinks waterboarding is OK should be waterboarded until they suffocate to death.
Waterboarding is torture. There are US court cases from previous wars that say waterboarding is torture.
What the hell happened to our once great nation? We should not be debating this at all. Waterboarding is torture.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:58 am
Mukasey Won’t Say Waterboarding Is Torture But in 1947 the U.S. Called It a War Crime, Sentenced Enemy Officer to 15 Years Hard Labor
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2007/10/29/mukasey-wont-say-waterboarding-is-torture/
“depends on who does it”????
The Call for Christo-Fascism Awareness Week
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=15963
October 31st, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Information obtained under torture is NEVER trustworthy. The Inquisitors knew that too.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:05 pm
And, again, how many times do I have to say it….
It was a post about two stupid bloggers at DU
October 31st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
One more time for the slow ones….
Pretending to waterboard yourself is no more a rational way to discuss the issue of torture than jumping off a building is a rational way to discuss gravity.
That was the point of the post, got it ?
October 31st, 2007 at 12:14 pm
“And, again, how many times do I have to say it….
It was a post about two stupid bloggers at DU”
I except that Mr. Mataconis but what I’m trying to tell you is that I see something deeper in your post, I see someone trying to find someway to justify torture.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Read into it whatever you want, I don’t care.
I’ve already answered your question so I don’t think there’s anything else to say.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Tom,
So anyone who doesn’t agree with you should die ?
How very Stalinist of you.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Okay, here’s the classic example. We’ve found a WMD (insert type of your own choosing) set to go off in a major american city but it can’t be disarmed in time without a specific code.
We have the person who knows the code in custody but he won’t give it up.
An overzealous agent decides to use unorthdox methods to extract that information.
Regardless of whether he’s successful or not, was it right for the agent to do that ? No.
Do I understand why, under those specific circumstances or something very similar to them, someone charged with protecting the public might go overboard ? Yes.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Mr. Mataconis,
Do you really want me to respond to a question culled from a hypothetical situation that you saw on the television show “24″?
It’s funny, if someone questioned whether or not I was for torture I would care a lot.
I’ll just leave you with my answer to the question I posed to you previously:
I truly believe we betray all those who fought and died and those who gave of themselves to defend our country and our way of life when we allow torture in our name. I am an American, I do not torture.