The protests against Kosovo’s declaration of independence reached Belgrade today when rioters attacked the U.S. Embassy:
(CNN) — Violence broke out Thursday as tens of thousands of Serbs protested Kosovo independence and reportedly set fire to the facade of the U.S. embassy in Belgrade, according to news agencies.
Riot police fired tear gas at Serb rioters as protesters wearing masks broke into the embassy.
U.S. State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said; “We are in contact with the Serbian government to ensure that they devote the appropriate assets to fulfill their international obligations to help protect diplomatic facilities in this case.”
The embassy was closed and not staffed, a U.S. official told CNN. The United States was among the first countries to offer official recognition of independent Kosovo.
The violence was part of a much bigger, peaceful demonstration where up to 150,000 people chanted ‘Kosovo is Serbia,” and vowed to never accept the province’s independence.
Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, who earlier addressed the rally, said “Kosovo is Serbia’s first name.” He called the declaration of independence last Sunday illegal and said will do all he can to get it annulled.
Anything ? The last time a Serbian said that in connection with a former province of Yugoslavia, we ended up with a civil war that killed tens of thousands. Kostunica may be as bombastic as Milosevic was, but I don’t know that he has either the will or the means to translate his words into actions.
Update: Welcome to all the people who’ve left comments here. Additional updates on the Kosovo situation are listed below:
As Goes Kosovo, So Goes Quebec ?
Russia: Force Not Ruled Out In Kosovo Crisis
More Serbian Violence In Kosovo
The Death, Finally, Of Yugoslavia
To Val:
Ti si, cini mi se, malo pobrkala loncice.
- Da li sam ja manifestovao ikakve pretenzije prema Crnoj Gori? (btw, ponosim se time sto sam Crnogorac!)
- Da li sam ja jednom jedinom recju “branio ljude kao sto je Slobodan Milosevic”? (btw, i on je Crnogorac, kao i Arkan, kog pominjes!)
- Da li sam ja ubijao ili maltretirao druge? (btw, smatram da se problemi jedino i mogu resiti ovako kako ja pokusavam, istinom i argumentima, a ne ratom!)
- Da li ti, zaista, znas ista o ljudskim pravima? Da li je, recimo, srpski/hrvatski/crnogorski/bosnjacki/kakav god jezik ravnopravan u sluzbenoj komunikaciji u SAD, ili Albaniji, kao sto je bio albanski na Kosovu i Metohiji u vreme pre pobune velikoalbanskih separatista i dolaska UNMIK? (btw vidi sta pisu “Kosovari” i drugi Albanci koji su postavili postove, o Velikoj Albaniji)
- Da, zaista, ono divljastvo grupe huligana i idiota u Beogradu je uzasno ruzno, i to sam rekao u svom prvom postu ovde. Ali, mlada si verovatno da se secas – a ja se secam – kako su svojevremeno albanski separatisti i teroristi na Kosovu i Metohiji ugurali flasu kisele vode jednom deki, Martinovicu (Crnogorcu!) pokusavajuci tako da zaplaase nealbanski zivalj i oteraju ih s vekovnih ognjista.
- Na kraju, Val – kako god da se zoves i koje god da si vere ili nacije – zapamti: narodi se ne mogu deliti na dobre ili lose, samo se ljudi dele na dobre ili lose.
‘Homey we keet those on us
Smoke like mufflers
To calm down/I sell
But still explode
Those things so fast/they know not to gas they self
They can’t fuck with us, we laugh last’
Serbia rulezz…
Someone from ‘EU’.
That’s all you guys could come up with? Among hundreds of conflicts in the Balkans, Albanians started three wars – two of which HAVE NOT EVEN HAPPENED except maybe in your head? And, that Albanians are cowards and have managed to be on the right side? Come on guys, you can’t be serious! Albanian people unfortunately had no rights anywhere in the Balkans including Albania itself. How could they play the politics without connections? The Kosovar Albanians that live on your side of the border were not even allowed to be taught in schools in their own language. What nation would just sit around and be? Of course they would rebel. But, you know what? The world would not have noticed again (like it did for centuries) if the Serb government did not make those stupid wars and discredit itself in Croatia and especially in Bosnia.
Nebojsa,
It hurts when you see this kind of destruction, no matter on what side you are. I feel the same for the orthodox monasteries that angry troubled people damaged. But I hope that this is the end of this madness and our people will be in peace for all time to come.
http://hul.harvard.edu/publications/hul_notes_1295/articles/kosovo.html
Urosh, what the fuck is wrong with you, that was the dumbest shit i have heard. U stupid Serbian shit, UCK has the last laugh, dont u follow current events, u ugly shit.
Nebojsa,
Ma o kakvoj ravnopravnoj komunikaciji ti pricas majke ti?Kosovski albanci nisu imali prava ni da se skoluju na maternjem jeziku.E Nebojsa ,Nebojsa mlada tolko nisam, zato dobro pamtim kolko puta je Srbija trovala Kosovske Studente,da ne pominjem koliko od njih je ubila.A ne ma ne kako to srbi nebi nikad uradili?Right?Ma ne bre oni nemogu ni muvu da ubiju!Jesi ikad cuo za Adem Jasara.Need I go on?
Bila sam u Kosovo jednom 1997 and mogu ti reci da sam videla mnogo stvari koje nikad necu zaboraviti.
These Kosovars here that are responding to you,they my friend are the ones who didnt watch the war from a TV,in their lovely comfy houses.They are the ones who experienced it firsthand.They are the ones who lost their loved ones and homes and eveything they had ,so this day would come.Once again i will say it :You are blinded by serbian media so much that you cannot see the reality.Untill you’ve experienced half of what these ppl have been through ,through centuries you have no right to even reply.
Slobo je bio Crnogorac poreklom al je bio Srbin IPO U srcu.Pakao mu je predobar jer je on kriv za sve ovo!
Now peace be with you and god help you all!
@someone EU, your frustration is growing
-you seem to enjoy sth inside your hairy Serbian ass, because you told me how you fck in the ass, we Americans fked you with bombs in the azz in 1999
-you are saying God is watching Serbs, thats right, you are being punished, Europe doesn’t want you to exist, you and Russia will be punished as long as you exist because both of you nationalist nations hate democracy.
By the way, Italy is the world champ in football, whereas your Serbian nation was owned by Argentina 6:0
@Nebojsha, I don’t need to learn your propaganda history, I already learned it, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Albania, Bulgaria, Bosnia have the same history books which states “Kosovo was Dardania a part of Illyrian kingdom.” As for recent history, I watched and enjoyed the defeats of Serbs to Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Nato in Kosovo. Why did I enjoy, because you Serbs are always troublesome. As UK foreign minister said “Russia is an isolated country they can’t do anything besides talking propaganda to Serbs”
Cheers!
to the person who made the comment about KosovA not being independent.
24 out of 27 approved and recognize KosovA as independent, which would only leave 3 that didnt (this is including u animals) therefore yes KosovA is now officially independent and if you animals all decide to burn eachother it does not make a difference because there is nothing to be done now. So you may all go slit your wrists. Thank You, Have a nice day!
@ Ilira
You’re probably the smartest Albanian I’ve ever seen.
You should run for President of half recognized Kosovo
@ kosovari
You didn’t heard it, you’re read it you stupid fucker!
UCK is for now laughing… but both of us knows that this battle is far over. Don’t worry, will see each other in close future as soon as Americans leave and then, when there’s no one around to defend you will see who’s gonna laugh! Pussies…
Tony explain why do you think that Serbia is democratic?
Jana take a look at this:
http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/
Tony explain why do you think that Serbia is not democratic?
Jana take a look at this:
http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/
Urosh, Thanks for the compliment but it doesn’t seem like you have had much contact with Albanians. Here I’d like to introduce you to some more. I’m proud to say they are smarter and better informed than me.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread336159/pg7
@Val: Thanks!
urosh. U ugly fuck don’t worry uck will always be alive. Serbia can’t do shit anymore. Keep living in a dream world but Serbia will never step foot in kosova again. If they try my fellow Albanians and I will be right there to stop them. Uck took only 5 years to develop. Imagine the army we are going to create in another 5 years. U can stop shitting ur pants because I know u Serbs fear how strong we are going to become. Everytime I see a Serb around an Albanian in ny they start shitting their pants. Everyone in the free world hates Serbia. Explain that u fags
Ilira I said that only because you called for peace and for saving of cultural legacy (orthodox and muslim) and all this people that you showed to me are just I’m-having-a-problem-with-Serbs-USA-help-us-please terrorists. You’re wrong about me not knowing Albanians. I was on Kosovo around 10 times from ‘98-’03 (my sister studied there) and I almost get killed in Pristina in ‘98. Some Albanian terrorist yelled something on albanian language on us and when he saw that we can’t understand him, he started to shoot on us with AK-47. We escaped from him, and I’m still remembering his face like it was yesterday. After that I went in Pristina couple of times on few days with a gun in my trousers looking for him and I still haven’t founded him yet. But when I do, I’m gonna put a bullet right between his eyes and simply turn around and leave like nothing happened! I’m guessing that the children killer have his own kids now (probably 10-20 actually ’cause for your people thats normal) and I’m gonna feel sorry for that kids when they loose their father but for him I don’t give a fuck!
After this story if any Albanian write something like ‘I’m imagining’ or ‘keep dreaming’ and bullshits like that he is a cock sucker!!
During the NATO bombing they bombed some TV anntena in my hood (2mx2m and 30 feet tall) with several tones weighted bomb and I was just about 100 yards away and, once again, I almost get killed! In that time I was 17 years old.
Kosovari please don’t call me ugly ’cause I fucked better pussies than you can probably imagine. I know that UCK is gonna be there waiting for us ’cause you know that we’re gonna back. You needed a lot more then 5 years to develop your terrorist army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army) and just couple of months to get destroyed, but your ‘God’ saved you that time. Till next time…
Val jedva cekam da te vidim za 20 godina kad ti siptari budu klali decu.
To Val:
(Kosovski albanci nisu imali prava ni da se skoluju na maternjem jeziku.)
NEISTINA. Verujem da nisi dobro obavestena, ali, Albanci na Kosovu i Metohiji, kao sve druge nacionalne manjine (“narodnosti”) u Srbiji i drugim republikama bivse SFRJ, imali su skolovanje na maternjem, dakle albanskom, jeziku, kao i medije, licna dokumenta, upravu, zdravstvo i td. Neke stvari su se pod Slobinim rezimom promenile za one Albance sa KiM koji nisu priznavali drzavu Srbiju. Svima ostalima – ostala su sva prava. Kao ilustracija: u utorak sam vodio dete na Deciju kliniku u Beogradu i tamo svojim ocima video albansku porodicu iz Pristine, koja je bez ikakvih problema dosla u beograd zbog lecenja deteta, kome na Kosovu nisu mogli da pomognu.
(kolko puta je Srbija trovala Kosovske Studente,da ne pominjem koliko od njih je ubila.Jesi ikad cuo za Adem Jasara.)
Podji logikom zdravog razuma: da je Srbija “trovala” kosovsko-albanske studente, zar bi ih toliko bilo? Adem Jasari je bio zlocinac, koji je ubijao i Srbe i Siptare, koji nisu bili za UCK. I da: bilo je ubistava, na zalost, i previse, zverskih, strasnih, sa obe strane, a vreme ce pokazati ko ih je provocirao i konacno ko je, kako i zasto gurnuo kosmetske Albance u ovu avanturu, koja se nece dobro okoncati. Autonomija, koju im je na pregovorima nudila Srbija (dakle, ne Sloba, vec demokratska vlada!), bila je mnogo veca od bilo cije u svetu, i delili bi dobro i zlo sa svim ostalim gradjanima Srbije. Na zalost, oni su izabrali put koji ce ih samo izolovati, jer Kosovo je i privredno, i ekonomski i kako god zavisno od ostatka Srbije.
(They are the ones who lost their loved ones and homes and eveything they had…)
Da, na zalost, u onome sta se desavalo 1998. i 1999. mnogi su stradali, mnogi ostali invalidi, mnogi ostali bez igde icega. Ali, u najmanju ruku isto su prosli kosovski Srbi i drugi ne-Albanci. I dan danas u uzoj Srbiji zivi oko 250.000 Srba koji su proterani sa svoje imovine na Kosovu ili su sve izgubili. Ako budes zelela da se vise informises, mogu da ti dam adrese web sajtova.
To Ilira:
Library of Halum Suleman Efendi (destroyed on those picture on Harvard’s site), are, (first), from the TURKISH OTOMAN HERITAGE (not Albanian), and (second) destroyed by NATO bomb in march 26th.
And yes, I can agree with you, destruction of cultural legacy are madness. But, let me point: during two years of Kosovo-Albanians rebellion, a lot of heritage (ortodox, muslim), was destroyed. But only in ONE DAY, march 17th 2004. (Kosovo in those times was already 5 yrs under UNMIK, Albanians was “safe and protected”), Albanians destroys around 40 Serbian churches and monasteries, and burn several thousand of homes of earlier-refugee Serbs.
Urosh, I’m kind of glad you are continuing this conversation because I can see where you come from and why you hate the Albanians. Unfortunately, year 1998 was the wrong time to be in Kosovo for everybody, Serbs or Albanians. I believe your story is genuine and that is my point: both our people have suffered and I’m hoping this will stop. You escaped death and have not forgotten that day. As you say you will not rest until you get revenge even though you are very lucky because you are alive. Now, can you step for one fraction of a second on the other side?
I was born and raised in Albania but my father is from Kosovo. Part of his family (and yes, you’re right they are also a very big family) came from Gjakova to find refuge in our home, the other part ended up in a refugee camp in Macedonia. In the whole mess of escape, my teenage cousin was left behind with his uncles, from his mom’s side, in the village. I won’t even try to even explain the anguish that my family went through.
To make a long story short, let’s fast forward to year 2008. My cousin is still alive and finally well after suffering a severe depression. He witnessed what we’re not quite sure yet. All he ever said about the event was that the Serbian paramilitia blew an animal to pieces just an arm’s length away from where he was hiding and, that both his uncles were taken away. What I know for sure is that both brothers have not returned ever since. They had wives and young children.
On the other side, five cousins of my father (all brothers that belonged to 2 different families) were also taken away. Their remains were found in Serbia through DNA identification after years of frantic search. For two years the rest of the family postponed the funerals because nobody was strong enough to tell their mothers the truth (they were convinced that their children were somewhere in some Serbian prison). The funerals finally happened last year. None of these people belonged to KLA. They only decided to stay home “to not leave the homes alone” as we randomly would say. Our homes are sacred to us.
It is a fact that many families in Kosovo have stories like this to tell. Can someone tell them that it s fair for the Serbian government to govern them any more? Do you think it is fair for the Albanin-Kosovars to carry Serbian passport and be proud and decent Serbian citizens? I don’t think so. This is not about greater Albania and all that non sense. This is about giving people what they deserve and not pocking on wounds that have not even closed yet. Finally, I cannot speak for everybody else but I know that my family has decided to rise beyond all the pain for the sake of Kosovo’s independence. I hope you will let it go, too.
Nebojsa,
I’m going to respond to you in English because at this point it’s easier for me to do so.So according to you Adem JAsari was a war criminal,guess what?So was Arkan!Why then didn’t serbs ,since they are so innocent according to you ,go to his hometown and kill eveyone on his bloodline,Why not Karadzic?Why Jasari?
You are making it seem as if im talking out my ass,imagining every single thing i’m saying,honestly,i wish i was.That way i would know that no human being is able to hate on another the way serbs hated on others,that no one in power has the audicity to hold a gun to your head because you are muslim,croatian,albanian .
There have been instances when it was the other way around of course,like in Uros’s case.Poor Uros thinks what happened to him was so horrible ,yet he is still alive typing here,while there were so many like him ,that were younger than him that died in front of their mothers and sisters.They didnt get a second chance,they were killed because they spoke the only language they knew how to speak.
I can tell you plenty and plenty of stories of this kind Nebojsa ,from ppl who were killed to those who don;t own even a picture from the past because everysingle thing they had, was left in the appartments that were handed over to Serbs in Mitrovica.
Yes,i do know that so many serbs died too,and in no way shape or form do i agree with any kind of murder,unless it is self defense.When the times call for drastic measures ,you take drastic measures.It’s called survival of the fittest!
There is no need for me to inform myself from your sites that are probably serb owned and manipulated ,because any bosnian,croatian and anyone from the ex-Yu can tell you exactly what they think of the serbs.Unfortunately,albanians weren’t their only victims!
Now the serbs are hating on the US ,cheering on 9/11,wishing death and destruction upon it,because in ‘99 it did the only thing left to do ,after so many attempts to calm the situation down.THe serbs should blame their corrupt gov’t for what happened to them.Not the US!
Now,we can go on back and forth about this for years but in our case this is a no-win situation .
WHat i hope though is that this will not cause another world war ,i wouldn’t be suprised if it did because it wouldnt be the first time Serbs started a war.
To Uros:
Ne brini se ti za moju decu Urose oni su Amerikanci i njih cuva striko BUSH!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Nebojsa, i’m am not a historian and unfortunaly it’s not very for me to have access to information from so far away. Internet is not a great source when discussing heritage. All I know is that Haddum Suleiman was born in Guske/Gjakove and the mosque was built on Jak Vata’s land. It is of a Turkish Otoman heritage because it is a MOSQUE! That’s how Islam was introduced to the Balkans. This is like saying that your churces are of Orthodox heritage.
—–
“Other museum collections in Kosovo have also been despoiled, not by acts of deliberate destruction but appropriation. By order of the Serbian Ministry of Culture, hundreds of the most valuable archaeological artefacts from three important museum collections in Kosovo – the Museum of Kosovo, the Municipal Museum in Mitrovice and the Regional Archaeological Museum in Prizren – were removed to Belgrade at the beginning of 1999, ostensibly for an exhibition. The exhibition, entitled `The Archaeological Treasures of Kosovo and Metohija: From the Neolithic to the Early Middle Ages/Arheolosko blago Kosova i Metohije: od neolita do ranog srednjeg veka’, opened at the Gallery of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (SANU) on 24 March, the day NATO launched its air war. A glossy 747-page catalogue of the exhibition, with illustrations of 424 of the items taken from Kosovo museums, was published during the war by SANU. It’s a safe bet that none of these items (which include artefacts of Kosovo’s prehistoric and Dardanian/Illyrian cultures, held by modern Kosovars to be the roots of their own civilization), will ever be returned to their rightful owners, the museums in Kosovo”.
(source: http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/marjune00/museums.cfm)
“This heritage suffered massive destruction during the recent conflict. In the majority of cases, it was evident from the statements of eyewitnesses, from the type of damage (mosques burned out from within, with no bullet or shrapnel holes; minarets that had been blown up with explosives placed inside, causing the stone spire to collapse onto the building), and from visible signs of vandalism (Koran manuscripts ripped from bindings and burned or defaced with human excrement, crude anti-Muslim and anti-Albanian graffiti in Serbian on the walls of destroyed and desecrated mosques) that this destruction was not the result of military activities. These were not buildings that had been caught in the crossfire as Serbian forces fought Albanian rebels, or hit by NATO’s bombs and missiles.
According to statistics published before the war, there were 607 mosques in Kosovo as of 1993. Of these, 528 were congregational mosques (xhamia) of which 498 were in active use, and 79 smaller mosques (mesxhid) of which 70 were in active use; the majority dated from Ottoman times.[8] More than 200 of these mosques—a third of all Islamic houses of worship in Kosovo”
(Source: http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/kosovo/herscherriedlmayer.htm)
To summarize all this let’s see where it all started:
“Beginning in October 1990, ethnic Albanian faculty and students were ejected by Serbian police from classrooms and offices at the University of Prishtina, which became an apartheid institution reserved for ethnic Serbs only. At the same time, non-Serb readers were banned from the National and University Library, which serves as the central research library for the university and as Kosova’s national library of record. Kosovar Albanian professionals were summarily dismissed from their positions at academic and public libraries and other state-supported institutions. The acquisition of Albanian-language library materials effectively ceased. In the mid-1990s a number of library facilities in Kosova were converted to other uses. Parts of the National and University Library building in downtown Prishtina were turned over to a Serbian Orthodox religious school; library offices were used to house Serb refugees from Croatia and Bosnia. For almost a decade 1.8 million Kosovar Albanians þ 90 percent of the population þ were not allowed to set foot inside libraries in Kosova”
(source: http://www.bosnia.org.uk/bosrep/decfeb00/libraries.cfm)
To Val:
I’ll try to respond you on English, even it’s not my native language.
I am not approving any killing of innocent. People who commit war crimes should be on trial. But, war crimes was committed on both sides and those fact can’t be an excuse for break an independent and sovereign country. (f.eg. Germany, during WWT, murdered more than 6 mil. Jewish, but Israel is not formed on the soil of Germany)
Generally, it’s hard to talk about war in fmr. Yugoslavia, a lot of ugly things happened in those war, no one goes out of that happy, but, remember, you need two sides for every fight. You should know a lot of history and a lot about what’s really happened in those days, who done what, which foreign secret service or agency done what… and I think we still don’t know everything.
But, just compare that: in Mitrovica, now, there is around 10.000 Serbs left. From the other parts of Kosovo, more than 250.000 Serbs are dispelled. For more than 3.000 Serbs from Kosovo their families still do not know where they are, probably dead, but, where are their graves?
Anyway, the fact that you don’t want to inform yourself from independent sources – speaks a lot about your position and “strength” of arguments.
At the end – I do not hate America. I do not cheer 9/11. I can not be happy because of someone’s misery. But, 9/11 is a collateral damage of American policy, just like more than 3.000 Serb, civilians, who was collateral damage of NATO bombing.
Urosh, if u r referring to Serbian women being pretty, then i know something is really wrong with you.
Now regarding UCK, we were created in 5 years with little resources and until 96,97, not many people knew about it. Now with all of the resources we have and all the people outisde of Kosova who will always defend their country: we will be stronger than you can imagine.
Its time to admit that Kosova is its own country, Urosh, just move on, try to to do something with your country because at its current pace its not going anywhere. All Serbia is doing is going back, not advancing and the sooner you realize that Kosova is not yours, you might actually improve your country. You will not be able to force millions of people in Kosova who are Albanian to live under a serbian govt, that time is over. Tell Kostunica to stop his stupid ways because he is just detroying your country again. Tell me why thousands of people marched to put Milosovic out of office and yet again you follow Kostunica. When will your country learn that your hard line nationalists leaders are only isolating your country.
Ilira I don’t hate Albanians in global, just that fucker who tried to kill me and my sister… And that pilot too, but for him that was only his job and I understand that. I’m sorry to hear for your family victims and destinies. I’m sure that they didn’t deserve that what happened to them. That only proves to me that in war innocents are the biggest sacrifices.
I also understand why is not fairly that our government govern on Kosovo and I agree that it’s not fair. But in that case, why Republic of Srpska can’t have their own independence? If you want independence that’s cool, but first you (not you actually but USA) need to answer why is Kosovo ’special case’. On what facts is based that political position? They (again USA) can’t explain that and that’s why Serbia won’t agree with politic of USA (by right I think). If you try to see this situation from our position, you’ll see why do we think that this is attempt of creating ‘great Albania’ (along with parts of Macedonia, Montenegro and, as somebody already said before me here, northern Greece, but I didn’t know that).
All I try to say is that war shouldn’t be an option in this moment (either I think that in the future it’s inevitably, whatever me, you, Nebojsa or Val are thinking), especially for us ’cause it would be our collective suicide when you’re still protected by ‘God’. It’s glad to me also that this conversation is continuing ’cause I believe that you’re complete normal person who’s trying to defend own people, but not with weapon like this fucker Kosovari.
Val, nemoj pogresno da me shvatis, tebi i tvojoj deci zelim sve najbolje a ne da vas kolju siptari, a taj tvoj stav da su ti deca Amerikanci ti ne valja zato sto nisu (doduse ne znam ko im je otac) vec su Crnogorci i nemoj da dozvolis da oni to zaborave. Amerika napada redom kako hoce i gura svoju bulju svuda, cak i kad niko od njih to ne trazi, i tako ce da bude sve vreme dok ne dobiju kurac u tu svoju bulju. Posto sam protivnik ratova, malo je glupo ovo sto cu da kazem, ali bih bas voleo da Amerika napadne Iran zato sto bi ga u tom ratu popasli samo tako. Sve vreme napadaju pod izgovorom da ’sire’ demokratiju (alo bre, ‘de se to siri oruzijem?!?), a i sami su demokraticni u picku materinu. Demokratija je sloboda misljenja a Amerikanci to, u startu, ne postuju jer zabranjuju komunizam. Slikovito objasnjenje… To ti je k’o da hodas jednom ulicom koja se zove demokratija. Skretanje levo ti je, recimo komunizam a desno nesto trece, nebitno uostalom. U demokratskoj slobodi misljenja ti bi imala pravo da pomislis ‘da l ovde da skrenem?’ ali na zalost ti to nemas pravo da pomislis vec samo imas pravo da nastavis tom istom ulicom, a jedino sto smes da pomislis to je da l ces da hodas levom ili desnom stranom ulice (to su kao demokrate i republikanci). Trenutno idete desnom stranom ali kolko vidim uskoro cete da predjete ulicu… Ali i dalje samo pravo… U smrt!
Ako ima Boga Amerika ce goreti ko Berlin ‘45! Jer ste isti!
Kosovari, I’m agree that Kostunica is evil man, but what can I do about it?
To Ilira:
Be careful when you use different sources. There is sources and “sources” (like this “bosnia” stuff).
As it seems to me you are a clever lady, let me ask you: how many mosques in Kosovo are under UNESKO protection? Several biggest Serbian monasteries are. Before the war, there was more than 800 Serbian churches on Kosovo. We are not talking about someones roots, and pre-history. I am talking about heritage of formed nations.
But, it is also fact that Albanians, who was living on Kosovo before the 1990, have every right to live in peace and prosperity on those land, and share and care the heritage, with their neighbors, Serbs (Turks, Gypsies, and others). But those is not a permission to took Kosovo out and annex to Greater Albania. (dreams about “greater” Croatia, Serbia, Albania… made this Balkan horror much more monstrous).
i know one person cannot not take him out, but one person who stands up can give voice to others, so people like Kostunica dont set a country back 100 years. The problem i have with Serbia is when soldiers go killing little kids and innocent people when the people who should be fighting are the soldiers. I have seen that they dont care who they kill, to them it seems fun and no one in this world can tell us that we should be part of serbia when that happens. Serbian people almost elected another ultra nationalists for president, that just show that they still think backwards. Instead of advancing their society, they seem to set it back another 100 years
Nebojsa,
Kao sto ti malo prije rekoh,mozemo mi danima i godinama da se raspravljamo u vezi ovoga.Mozemo da citiramo heroje ,i da citamo sajtove zavisne i nezavisne.Istina je da ni jedna ni druga strana nisu bez krivice.
Ja samo ne mogu da razumijem zasto je tebi tolko stalo i zasto te tolko briga dali je nezavisno il zavisno?Zar ne vidis kako je nezavisnot pomogla Crnoj Gori.Zasto smo mi balkanci uvijek gotovi za rat i genocide?Zasto mi moramo da idemo u inostranstvo “Za Bolji Zivot” kad u svojoj domovini imamo sve osim “Normalnih politicara”?.
Zivot tece dalje Nebojsa bilo sta je bilo :Move on!Ovako je bolje za obije strane.Pa i od muza se covek razvede ,kad ne ide ,ne ide!
To Uros:
Imam ja potpuno drugi stav sto se tice moje djece.Oni znaju mnogo dobro odakle su i sto su al sam to figurativno rekla.
Ima mnogih stvari sa kojim se ne slazem u odnosu Amerike sa drugim zemljama,pogotovo otkad je strika BUSH u vladi al sto ces,samo dok je mira ja se mirim svima.Ne volim da vidim domovinu u ratu i zato mislim da Nezavisnost Kosova je najbolja solucija Za vas I za sve.ZAsto rat kad moze mir.
I nemoj da pozeljis rat nikome jer ako se nesto desi americi nece biti dobro za nikoga.Amerika je najdemokraticna zemlja u svetu.Treba ti jedan dan da zivis tu da bi svatio o cemu pricam.
HAjt sad cao svima
and Urosh, when someone has a gun pointed to you the only thing u can defend yourself is with a gun. Dont tell me that we are the ones that start conflicts, because this Kosovari sees serbian soldiers with guns, and what is he forced to do? you and i both know who brings the guns out first, and we have do defend our people
Urosh,thank you so much for your understanding. I wish I could say something to you about your question regarding the Republic of Srpsk, but I can’t because I don’t know enough. The way I see it is that the US and the major European countries are recognizing Kosovo’s independence because of the repeated human right’s violations that have happened there. What made the world take notice was triggered by what happened in Croatia, Slovenia and especially in Bosnia. By the time the Kosovo war happened the Serbian government had a much damaged reputation and no country wanted to associate with it. Therefore they all supported the war and now are simply following through.
As for the theory of the “Greater Albania” I just wanted to make sure that I repeat that it is simply not true. I am not denying that there are always some extremists but I assure you that from an Albanian’s point of view, this theory is plain stupidity. Someone from ‘EU’ (who is probably a Greek that has some problem with Albanians) mentioned Northern Greece. Who in the right frame of mind would be able to create an army with people that are actually willing to die to make their cities and villages part of Albania? Greece is already in the EU and its citizens enjoy all the benefits that come with this. Do you think they will give it all up to be part of the most struggling country in Europe? Albanian citizens themselves are scattered all over Europe, doing the hardest jobs (often illegally because they can’t get a regular visa) while trying to support their families back home. The same goes for the Albanians in Macedonia and Montenegro. They are all stronger economically than the Albanians inside Albania. As long as they can travel freely to Albania and their own rights, such as to use their language and represent themselves in the government, are not violated they are going to be fine. As for Kosovo, its main purpose is going to be getting in the EU and NATO and they will probably be able to do so sooner than Albania itself. Even though they love Albania, Kosovars have shed way too much blood to let themselves be governed by the super- corrupt incompetent governments of Albania.
Hope this helps clear a few things up.
To Val:
Vidi, nikako ne mozes da poredis nezavisnost Crne Gore sa nezavisnoscu Kosova i Metohije. Polazne premise nisu iste: Crna Gora je bila stara evropska drzava, maticna drzava Crnogorskog naroda, koja je (bar formalno-pravno) dobrovoljno u jednom trenutku ujedinjena sa Srbijom usla u Kraljevinu Srba, Hrvata i Slovenaca, da bi posle 1945. dobila status ravnopravne (socijalisticke) republike u SFR Jugoslaviji (sa jos pet republika).
Kosovo i Metohija NIKAD nisu bili samostalna drzava, i svoj prvi formalni drzavno-pravni status imaju kao sediste i centar prve srpske kraljevine, u okviru koje su bili do same turske okupacije celog Srpskog (Dusanovog) carstva (u okviru koga se nasla i danasnja Albanija), pred kraj 15. veka. Srbija se protiv Turaka borila isto kao i Crna Gora, Bugarska i Grcka, i Turci su konacno oterani s teritorije Kosova i Metohije, sadasnje Makedonije (ranije takodje u sastavu Srpskog carstva), Grcka i Bugarske s krajem Prvog balkanskog rata 1912. godine. (Tzv. “uza” Srbija i Crna Gora oslobodile su se ranije)Tek TADA (znaci 1912. godine) su velike sile formirale drzavu Albaniju, otevsi, recimo Crnoj Gori grad Skadar sa okolinom, za cije je oslobodjenje poginulo nekoliko hiljada Crnogoraca.
E, sad: po raspadu SFRJ, Srbija i Crna Gora formirale su Saveznu Republiku Jugoslaviju, koja je prerasla u Drzavnu zajednicu Srbija i Crne Gora. Potom je CG iskoristila svoje pravo na osnovu “Beogradskog sporazuma” i Ustava i napustila drzavnu zajednicu ponovo nastupivsi kao nezavisna drzava. I tu spora nema, ni pravno, ni istorijski, ni moralno.
Kosovo i Metohija nikad nisu bili drzava i nikad nisu bili van drzave Srbije. Albanci na Kosovu su, kao i u Crnoj Gori ili Makedoniji, nacionalna manjina. Oni imaju svoju maticnu drzavu, Albaniju, i ako su kao nac. manjina na bilo koji nacin osteceni, imaju mnogo mogucnosti za zastitu, od organa drzave Srbije, preko Saveta Evrope i Suda za ljudska prava do OEBS. Mogu, ukoliko im zivot tu ne odgovara, i da se presele u svoju maticnu drzavu, ali ne mogu da otimaju deo suverene drzave i proglasavaju svoju republiku. To bi bilo isto kada bi Albanci u Tuzima u Crnoj Gori proglasili nezavisnost!
To Ilira:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bf/United_Albania_-_Ethnic_Distribution.png
Unfortunately, dream about Greater Albania is a true for most of Albanians, just look what “Kosovari” said…
Nebojsa, your comments are not very sincere. There’s a big difference between you and Urosh. You like to play with facts and interpret them in a way that suites you. He is trying to discuss. I went back to the old posts from Kosovari and there is only one instance where he mentions the “Greater Albania”. It is not difficult to see that he was really fed up with the anti-Albanian comments made up to that point (and I don’t blame him-I was fuming too) therefore decided to take revenge by using what he knows makes the anti-Albanians really angry. Now, I don’t quite agree with his tools but that’s his choice.
The map you posted is not about what you claim but just a map that shows the ethnic distribution. It was a little fishy that you only posted the map and not the whole site even though it is from the Wikipedia. Anyway, the term united Albania refers to CULTURAL unification where all Albanians take pride on their old language, traditional values and prosper with dignity. You are going to see more and more of this in the years to come but this is an issue among us that does not concern any other nation. Trying to trace your map I found this report that (if you read at least the executive summary) brings some light to this issue. There is a copy in Serbian as well.
http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2523&l=1
As for the Bosnian sources, you are right when you say to be careful to not get biased information. I felt comfortable with posting those sites because the reports were from a third party (Harvard University). You could have brought your own credible sources instead of disputing mine.
Seaching for Kosovari’s comment, I noticed your old comments about the Albanians in Kosove being a minority. This is where I say that you are not very sincere and like to stir trouble. It is very easy to verify that Albanians in Kosovo have never been less than 80%. That is NOT a minority unless you have created your own measuring standards.
Ilira:
Perhaps you didn’t understand me (perhaps you didn’t want to): I said NATIONAL MINORITY, what is a term for members of other nation (who have their native country)who are living on the territory of other country.
I was never trying to count how many Albanians are (or was) on Kosovo and Metohija. According historical documents, Albanians as nation starts to mention after Albania was formed, and yes, during last decades, mostly because economic (better standard in Tito’s Yugoslavia) and political (Regime of Ever Hodxa – i guess it ’s good written – in Albania) reasons, they becomes a majority in most of the municipalities on Kosovo and Metohija and some on the south of “basic Serbia”. They are also majority in some municipalities in Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece. As well as Mexicans majority in some states and counties on the south of USA.
If we agreed that Milosevic’s regime couldn’t find the proper and democratic way to solve ethnic problem on Kosovo and Metohija (as they couldn’t find the way to communicate with the most of population, mostly Serbs), you can’t ignore efforts of democratic regime after 2000. to solve this. Conditions of abroad autonomy Djindjic and Tadic was offered to Albanians are not seen anywhere in the world before. Find somewhere plan “More than autonomy, less than independence”, so, you will know what i’m talking about.
At the end: yes, I’m making a big difference between nonlegal independence (where I do not find a place to discuss) and ethnics rights and punishment of crimes.
I really have no idea what you are talking about. But if you are trying to prove your point(whatever that is) by suggesting that Hoxha’s regime played a role to “increase” the Albanian popluation of Kosovo, you must be out of your mind. Let me tell you a quick story.
My father crossed the border from Gjakova’s rural to Albania in 1956 when he was only a 15 years boy. He wanted to study in Albanian speaking schools. Little he knew then, that by taking that decision, he would end up seeing his mother 22 years later. By then he was a grown man and had his own family.
I was there when my dad saw his father for the first time after moving to Albania. It was over a bridge in Kukes at the border between Albania and Yugoslavia in 1980. We stood on the Albanian side of the bridge and my dad’s family stood on the other side. We were not allowed to talk, smile or wave at them. We were only allowed to look(!)at them. One of my uncles talked to my grandfather while pointing toward us. Then my grandfather with a plis on his head sat on the grownd and light a cigar. We all looked at each other for about half an hour and then were told that time was up. That was the last time my dad saw his own father and the only time I ever saw my grandfather.
The point of this story is that not a fly could cross that freakishingly sealed border. Hoxha was the worst thing that has ever happened to my nation. What you are suggesting on your previous comment is an intentional LIE. You keep complaining and whineing about Kosovo when in fact you can’t even dicently defend your views. People like you, that on purpose, generate incorrect information are responsible for all the ethnic problems in the Balkans. Enough already!
Anyway, look, first it was conflict between us and than USA and Russia get involved. After that they’ve just started to use us for their own interests. It’s simple as that. There is no truly ‘love’ between us and Russians and you and USA. They just want to use Kosovo for their military base ’cause it’s important for their strategic military position. For them that’s all what counts. You’re letting them to build base so they’re helping you.
On the other side, we and Russians are traditional allies. And we are. But (there’s always but) they’re just using us too for their own interests (such is to NOT letting go Americans to build their base on Kosovo). Between that, there’s a lot of deals on the side of this major question. For example Russians already agreed with our government to buy NIS (Serbian Oil Corporation) for price way below real and with that whole Serbian oil market ’cause NIS have monopole by the law in Serbia (personally, as economist, I agree with that it’s better for us to sell it to the Russians, ’cause if we sell it to anyone else he’ll just keep selling to us same that Russian oil only with higher prices, so eventually it will pay of). I’m guessing that same thing will happen with JAT (our airline company). Anyway I won’t bother you any more with our economy…
I read one comment written by some Albanian from Pristina on one Serbian news site and it’s going something like this: ‘You think that it’s only difficult to you ’cause you lost Kosovo and you think that it’s easy to us now when we’re independent. Well we’re not. We’re all living in a fear what will happen tomorrow when Americans ask for us something what we can’t give to them. Then they’ll, probably, start to blackmail us and then what are we going to do ?’ Eventually he came to similar conclusion like I am, that Americans and Russians are just using both of us as their playground. That is a fact which either of us shouldn’t forget. And now I think that he should too run for president of half recognized Kosovo instead bloody handed Kosovo’s politicians…
We, Serbs, are proud nation and if we’re gonna lose Kosovo we’ll do that with dignity. But you need to know that we’re not gonna forget that you took our saint land from us. We’re gonna try to take it back as soon as possible and we’re gonna keep trying until we take it back or you kill last Serb on the planet. That’s a fact that we’re never gonna accept. Serbia will never, I repeat, never be calm until take back Kosovo. We were remembering that for five centuries, we’ll do it again if we had to. In that you can be sure !
We both turned out to be very stupid nations when we alow to come to this. Now God knows what’s going to happen…
Ilira:
What did you said – that was my point. Without any hidden minds and lies (even I do not know what you concretely consider as lie in my previous post).
Since I guess you are talking about Hohxa… Political reasons, as I wrote, was among others, for some Albanians to escape from Albania and live on Kosovo and Metohija. How they done this? Hard, not on the cross-boards, but succesfull for most of them (Albanian boundary forces shoot on them, they was killed by mines, but, there was also secret ways).
In year 1980. in both countries was strong communist regime, in Yugoslavia led by Croat, Tito (that not exclude responsibility of Serb communists). And those regimes was not love each other. And it was quite good for Tito to accept those people, to make enemies of Hohxa and also for the prestige, because in those times Yugoslavia was most liberated country of socialistic block. In those times (since 1945.) political leaders on Kosovo and Metohija was mostly Kosovo Albanians (Fadil Hoxha, Ali Shukri, Kolë Shiroka and others).
With the 1974 Yugoslavia constitution, Kosovo gained full autonomy. The province’s self-government has applied Albanian curriculum to Kosovo’s schools: surplus and obsolete textbooks from Enver Hoxha’s Albania were obtained and put into use. Kosovo becomes promised land for Albanians. In the same time, Serbs starts to escape.
Serbs living in Kosovo were discriminated by the provincial government, notably by the local law enforcement authorities failing to punish reported crimes against Serbs.
Except my sorrow because your family was separated, what’s not clear enough?
Short historical lecture for all:
Yes, there was Illiric tribe called “Albani”, among others. Illiria had a territory between Istria and Greece, finally destroyed by Roman Empire in 2nd century BC, after that, territory of now-days Kosovo becomes part of Moesia Superior – Dardania, Roman province with borders goes from Singidunum (Belgrade) on the north to below of Naissus, southern. After that, becomes a part of Bulgarian Empire (850 to 1014), Byzantine Empire (1014 to 1180) and finally Serbia. Turks took under occupation whole Serbian Empire in the middle of 15th century. Liberation comes in 1912.
Nebojsa,
Liberation came in 1912!!!Here you go my Balkanian friend. I hope you enjoy this reading.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH1913_1.html
Or will it be easier on your eyes if I send you a picture?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24212646@N04/2296267207/
Fianlly I don’t know what you want to prove with that little history you posted (for which I must say it is very accurate). You speak as if I have any knowledge on your stories therefore I understand where you’re heading at. It seems that even you cannot deny that Dardanian’ Kingdom was there at least since IV BC. I wonder what language were they speaking?…hem….
Ilira:
First quotation just confirm what I said before: Serbian troops liberated “Old Serbia” (what was those-times name for Kosovo and Metohija, not “Old Albania” or similar)- where was the contribution of Albanian population? Montenegran troops liberated whole northern Albania, with Skadar (I do not know English spelling), but lost it by decision of great ally forces to form state of Albania, and that’s happened also with Greece on the south. Where was the contribution of Albanian population?
And those article is full of incorrectness and stupidities. Read just this:
“Serbian troops have invaded Albania with fire and sword. And if Albania cannot be conquered, then at least the Albanian people can be exterminated. This is the solution they propose.”
FACT: Serbian troops never invaded Albania, just one regiment goes on the sea in the line of Dures, to cut Turkish escape. And they have a ally among Albanians: Esad Pasha.
The picture you submit I newer saw, actually. And I do not have an idea why those people are there (in those time, Belgrade was on the northern board, KiM on the south) – except if they was prisoners of war, and fight on the Turkish side. But all of that I must take with reserve.
Do you know how many kingdoms was destroyed since IV BC? Do you really think that Dardanian’ Kingdom can be an argument for now-days aspirations? Come on! So, we can still be under Roman Empire!
And, Ilira:
It is interesting that you didn’t comment any other fact in my previous post… except word “Liberation”.
But, let’s stop on this: or I should tell you my grandfather’s (as eve-witness) story how “Albanian liberators” putting live Serbian children on Kosovo and Metohija in the fire, in 1941. after Nazi-troops comes. Or other facts?
Nebojsa,
I personally think that we’re simply going in circles here and I truly cannot afford to waste any more time with a non-constructive discussion. For the last time, here are my arguments.
The purpose of my posting that old report was to make a point that there were Albanian autochthonous people living in Kosove and Metohije even in 1912 (which the Serbian troops killed without mercy). It was a counterargument to your claim that there were not any Albanians in Kosova but Kosova was poplulated later(!) The way you closed the history paragraph by mentioning “your liberation” was done in a very arrogant way considering that the Serbian forces turned around and tried to swallow as much as they could. We too, fought and declared our independence and formed our national government (Nov 28, 1912). But our war did not stop there. We had to fight you, the Monte Negroans to the north, the Greeks to the south, and Bulgarians to the east who had all unchained and like hungry hyenas were running grab whatever they could.
These maps show the aspirations of all of you and what you were actually awarded in the end. The Serbs sure were very mad and loud after the conference of London to not be able to get to the Adriatic Sea so the great powers to the expense of Albanian people, gave them a candy to suck on, Kosova.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_aspirations_1914.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_belligerants_1914.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/balkan_belligerants_1914.jpg
I also thought I had already stated my opinion about what you say on the Albanians from Albania populating Kosovo. I told you already: that it is just a scrupulous lie. Your claim simply cannot stand to the truth. The truth is that nobody could cross that border. When I say this I am not talking about the physical way of crossing a border, but on the ways that Hoxha’s regime had made sure that no one would even dare to think about it. This refers to the consequences that this would bring to the families of those left behind. Their families would be destroyed to the most distant relative the communists could find. Second and third cousins, ants and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, sisters and brothers and whoever was married to them, would be thrown into prisons or cut off from the society by being sent to isolation camps. What I am describing is exactly what has happened to the families of those few who dared. People that have survived are still here to tell the truth of those days. For those few that left to Yugoslavia, there was only one reason that they did so: to escape the cruelty of Hoxha’s regime.
As for your other point, it is true that Tito gave Kosovars much more liberties that they had ever seen under Serbian regimes. For 7 years (yah.. that was really a strech…) the Albanians flourished and held even very high posts in the federal government. They liked Tito very much for that and are grateful to this day. Does this mean that they should have shut up and just be happy in the position of the receiver? In what they consider their own land?! Also, I don’t think you can deny that Kosova, the famous “birth place of old Serbia” was left to be the poorest of all in the Yugoslav federate. The minute the Kosovars asked for the status of the republic (1981) they were crushed again and all rights were taken away. Can someone explain what decent government closes the university and forbids its citizens to take pride in their own language and culture, because they protest (whatever the reason)?
Finally, you were the one to mention the Dardanian kingdom. It seems to me that you use a double standard. You can bring up the Serbian kingdom of the 15th century, but I cannot bring up the Dardanian kingdom of the IV century BC. Even so, my purpose was not to justify any territory aspirations. That term does not refer to an autochthonous. Autochthonous simply are, they do not need to have territory aspirations because the land belongs to them alrady. I just wanted to make sure that you remembered that the people that gave Dardania its glorious name were not the Serbs. They were the ancestors of the Illyrians and of the later sons, Albanians. Our language is our DNA therefore it gives us the right to stay, inherit and SELF-GOVERN AS WE WISH the lands where our forefathers lived.
Ilira:
You, again, put in my mouth what I didn’t said. Yes, in a parts of Balkan was “Albanian autochthonous people”, but it’s different than “Albanian nation”. And yes, there wasn’t SO MANY Albanians on Kosovo and Metohija before Second World War.
What’s the point of those maps? After First Balkan War, Serbian troops liberated Raska district, Old Serbia (today, territory of Province of Kosovo and Metohija) and “New regions” (FYR Macedonia). Montenegrians, as I said, territory around Schodra, Bulgarian and Greek troops other parts of occupied Balkan, etc. Of course, troops of winners were deployed also on some other territories, and, I know (and said about that!) for Serbian aspirations to took Dures and go to the Adriatic sea. But, that stays on aspirations: you can’t took some other’s country (in those case, Albania), just because you have stronger arms or allies. I do not approve that, as well as I don’t approve now-days aspirations of Kosovo and Metohija Albanians.
And remember: not one nation in Europe do not have in the own state all of members of their ethnics group.
I do not know where did you find this number – 7 – as a number of years of Tito’s regime? After defeating fascist (whose allies was Albanians!) Tito’s regime starts in 1945. and lasts till 1990. – till beginning of destruction of SFRJ. Tito dies in 1980, but his political children remains for next ten years. And voice of Serbia was one among six, or eight, because Vojvodina and Kosovo and Metohija had a autonomy.
Kosovo was one of the poorest regions of former Yugoslavia, indeed. That’s the reason why Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia (with Vojvodina) had ultimate obligation to give huge amounts of money each year for Kosovo (as well as for Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Macedonia).
Why the University in Pristina was closed? The only reason is because those University didn’t want to work according schooling program who was valid for all other universities in SFRJ. They ask for studying program (and books) from Albania.
About double standards: Yes, I mention Serbian Empire (not kingdom), as state of already formed nation. And I can’t compare tribes from prehistory and formed nations.
After all, even for name “Dardani” (Thraco-Illyrian tribe!) have no unity in science: a lot of scientific accept those word as Greek word, from mythology. And I was reacting on theory: old Dardanians = now days Albanians.
In modern world, protected by UN charter, state borders are fixed, and human (and other) rights of national minorities are protected through Council of Europe, OEBS, etc.
But, now I expect from you new “science theory” about direct connections among amoebas and Albanians. Come on!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Illyricum.jpg
Nebojsa,
The quote from your previous message, “Yes, in a parts of Balkan was “Albanian autochthonous people”, but it’s different than “Albanian nation” makes me laugh and cry at the same time. What the heck does that mean? Do you have any idea what point you’re trying to make? What is your final conclusion? Are the Albanians autochthonous or not? Do you really think that people that have been speaking a language for at least 9 thousand years have not managed to “have a nation” as you would put it?
Here I go again nagging you with my sources!
“Renfrew’s hypothesis, if correct, provides a date for the dissemination of Indo-European languages equivalent to that of the initial spread of farming, around 9500 to 10 000 years ago……it may be useful to refer to the original Indo-European spoken in Turkey 10 000 years ago as the primary Indo-European, pre-proto-Indo-European..…it is reasonable to think that isolated languages like Albanian and Armenian (and with less evidence Greek) originated with the first wave of Neolithic farmers from Turkey. Their greater age with respect to other families is responsible for their early position in the tree. They are also geographically closest to Turkey.” (Source: Genes and Languages, Luigi Luca Cavalli Sforza, Stanford University)
I really think that our debate has come to a dead end. A person that confuses “occupation” with “liberation”, that doesn’t have a clear understanding of what a nation means, and refers to Wikipedia for information has clearly some issues to resolve before engaging into a conversation like this. I find your self-righteous views very arrogant and non-sensitive to the rights and the history of the Albanian people. The starting point of this debate was if the Albanians of Kosovo have the right to separate from Serbia. I say “yes” and I think that I have made my point. You say “no” and you think that you have made your point. So let’s just leave it as such.
Ilira:
Come on! You really do not understand a difference between “autochthonous people” and nation? And you really think that language is the only thing that makes one nation? And, what’s YOUR point? That, because Albanian people speak Albanian language (old as you wish, even older!), they have right to stole a part of Serbia and declare “independence”? What a foolish!
Let me be clear: Albanians may be older than amoebas. That’s not an argument for this. Albanian language may be older than Earth. That’s not an argument for this. Albanians may have one country, as they already have: Albania. More than this point is not a “liberation”, more than that is violence. And this is a argument, a fact.
And, Albanians must to organize they own country, Albania, as an functional country, in which government have a power on whole territory and where is not a center of (drug, weapon, people) smuggling. I really wish all the prosperity for Albanians in Albania (and all over the world).
But, Albanians who live in other countries (Serbia, which include Kosovo and Metohija, Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece, etc.) must respect rules that is valid for all the people in those countries. As Serbs, Montenegrians or Greeks who are living in Albania do.
Finally, yes: this is the end of our conversation.
“They (Albanians) have often been submerged, but they have always come to the surface again, and by their long and stubborn fight they have earned over and over again their right to the barren rocks, infrequent plains, and insignificant harbors which go to make the patrimony, or rather what is left of it. They are the last remnants of the oldest race in Europe, for they represent the peoples who preceded the Greeks. They were deep rooted in the soil of the Balkan Peninsula ages before the first Slavs crossed the Danube, and if the Serb and the Bulgar have acquired the right to the land from which they drove the ancient tribes, at least those original inhabitants have justified their claim to the rocks and the shore, from which no enemy Slav, Bulgar or Turk has been able to dislodge them”
“The ‘Wild Albanian’”, The Fortnightly Review, May 1913
by Wadham Peacock
Formerly Private Secretary to Sir William K. Greene
H.B.M. Charge d’affairs in Montenegro and Consul-General in North Albania